@blackspidey2099: You gave me credit, so it was totally fine. And yeah tag me.
@blackspidey2099: Yeah. Mostly praise and some constructive criticism.
Awesome! I'll look forward to it. This is my first time repping Black Panther so I'm sure there's a ton of things I need to improve on lol
@blackspidey2099: You gave me credit, so it was totally fine. And yeah tag me.
May I also be tagged?
jeez that's long... It'll probably take me a while to counter in that case.
EDIT: OMG it's almost 20 pages long already... Is this karma for what I'm putting @_kingoflatveria through in the other CAV?
jeez that's long... It'll probably take me a while to counter in that case.
EDIT: OMG it's almost 20 pages long already... Is this karma for what I'm putting @_kingoflatveria through in the other CAV?
Wait what? I plugged my post into google docs and it's 37 pages.
jeez that's long... It'll probably take me a while to counter in that case.
EDIT: OMG it's almost 20 pages long already... Is this karma for what I'm putting @_kingoflatveria through in the other CAV?
Wait what? I plugged my post into google docs and it's 37 pages.
OMG dude... That's even worse. I actually concede... jk
And yeah, I think my Google Docs is kinda weird. For my post in the other CAV, Kev got around 35 pages but I only got 25. LOL.
jeez that's long... It'll probably take me a while to counter in that case.
It only looks long. There are so many sections, but if you open up the spoilers, some of them are pretty short. May compress the secrtiosn to make it look shorter.
Counters: Round 2
Counters - Batman's Gear
You conceded Black Panther's invisibility, so no counters here.
Batman's Energy Deflector
I pretty much reposted your scans because the mismatched order was extremely annoying - can you please fix it for your next post? It's a huge PITA to read through and counter your post when literally every single time you post 2 or more scans they are out of order.)
Apologies, but I tried and it wasn't working. IDK. I'll link to the scans extremely out of order instead of posting them, as a fix.
Thus, it is clear that the beam which the energy deflector was able to deflect was made of one of either high energy EM radiation or subatomic particles, though since it was giving off a visible energy beam, it's possible it could be EM radiation. Either way, that energy is certainly not similar to the energy types T'Challa uses in his energy daggers, force-field, or suit redirection. T'Challa's force-field is clearly not an energy beam in that sense, as it stays in one place instead of traveling at the speed of light, and neither are his energy daggers, as they can form in one shape and also don't move at the speed of light, and can be held/touched. As I mentioned in my earlier post (and showed in one of the scans), T'Challa's suit redistributes kinetic energy, which is not the same as either of those energy types. And in the scans I showed of the grenades, it seemed like they emit some sort of smoke when they explode, so it's clear the explosives were from a chemical reaction rather than being electromagnetic energy (not to mention the fact that if it was electromagnetic energy, it would be impossible to store it like that in a grenade). So your energy deflector won't be of any use in this battle.
It doesn't matter if the energy deflector only deflected high energy EM radiation beam. Because it's an energy deflector, I mean Bruce stated so himself:
It's an energy deflector. Bruce didn't say it deflects the specific subatomic or high energy EM radiation energy, but just energy. He didn't specify. Ergo, it's a general and "catch all" energy deflector. Granted, I wouldn't say it can deflect extremely/ specific energies (EX: Green Lantern Emotional Willpower Energy) but it would, at least based on it being a catch all energy deflector, deflect a number of known energies.
However, just to further drive the nail into the coffin of this strategy, I'd like to point out that Batman doesn't often use this energy deflector in character. In fact, AFAIK, that's the only time it has ever appeared. Do you have any other showings of this deflector in action?
You'd need a showing of Bruce having a chance to use the energy deflector, but not doing so. AFAIK there was never such an instance.
Batman's Chaff Grenades
As for the chaff grenades, from Batman's description, they basically just contain tiny pieces of reflective materials like small shards of a mirror. Since you've only shown them working on visible light though, there's no reason to think they'd work on any of Panther's tech, which I just explained were not visible light.
They should work on the hard light shields, which is what I was arguing. Dr. Light has made light forcefields using the same type and form of energy he used against Batman. Just compare the blast he used against Bruce:
To the light he made his forcefield with (Green Arrow Vol. 3 #58). It seems to be the same as the blasts he used against Bruce, meaning chaff grenades can deflect hard light as well.
The Omnipotent Energy Absorbing Batsuit
Are you serious?
100% serious, Sir BS2099.
Tanked a punch from Simon Baz? He's on the ground for the next two pages after that! I'm not sure how you define tank, but I think the majority of ComicVine users would agree that being knocked on the ground for two pages means he didn't tank the punch
Generally speaking, tank is defined with what happens after you take the hit. Like, if someone punches you and you bleed or you get knocked down but still completely fine afterwards - that's a tank. Otherwise you're referring to a no sell which is something like this. And The Fan was completely fine after that punch, heck he was laughing his ass off:
Also, Fan wasn't wearing an armor in this scan, and since he is just a regular human,
I'm assuming his counterfeit ring amped his durability, like how GL rings amp the durability of their users. The Fan did map some of the processes of the real thing (Justice League Vol. 3 #37)
Granted, it's an assumption. But since it's based off logic and some proof, I don't see why not.
The would have been killed had Simon used a lot of strength. It doesn't appear like Simon Baz was using all his strength there, since he wasn't trying to kill The Fan, so he must have been holding back - as the Flash says, Simon never uses deadly force. Thus, this durability feat is both unquantifiable and unimpressive.
Unless they're fighting the Sinestro Corps, Green Lanterns never kill. They don't use deadly force. They almostalways hold back. Doesn't make tanking hit from them any less impressive, as the vast majority of their striking feats they were holding back.
yeah, I really don't think that was meant to show the Fan bleeding, since it is coming from his arm which is covered by some sort of material, rather than an uncovered part of his body. Blood doesn't just spurt out like that.
His suit was modeled after the JL's uniforms, the section Batman hit was Aquaman's. AFAIK Aquaman's uniform material doesn't include anything looking similar to blood so yeah, that was blood.
But even if it was bleeding, that's still hardly impressive. I just proved that Fan doesn't have any impressive durability, since he is a regular person. Batman's punch broke his suit of armor, so there was nothing protecting him; meaning he's just a regular guy in superhero clothing getting punched by Batman. Even if his armor wasn't broken, it has no impressive durability feats, so this feat is still unimpressive.
So yeah, nothing from this energy absorption tech shows me that it is powerful enough to absorb any of Black Panther's own technology, whether the grenades or the daggers or the kinetic blasts.
You need to re-evaluate then.
Not to mention the fact that you've only shown it absorbing a blast from a knock-off Green Lantern ring, so we don't even know what type of energy it is - which means there's no reason to just assume it would work on Black Panther's weapons which are not just run of the mill lasers (which it looks like the knock-off ring emits).
He made it using some of the processes of the OG GL ring, the absolute basic of Green Lantern rings is harnessing Willpower energy as that powers them. Anyway, going by Occams razor it's much simpler to conclude Bruce made a general energy absorption batsuit, rather than he specifically built energy absorption tech to specifically counter Green Lantern Willpower energy. He's made general energy absorption tech in the past too, making it more likely a general energy absorption Batsuit.
I've already debunked why your
It's not mine...wait, do you actually think I'm Batman?
energy absorbing batsuit
Omnipotent energy absorbing batsuit. Get your facts straight.
is nowhere near as capable as you claim,
but now I'd like to show why it wouldn't work even if your claims were all true.
BS2099 showing us why it won't work
In that case, it just isn't consistent whatsoever for Batman to use this technology. It certainly would have come in handy in All-Star Batman #2 where Batman was completely knocked out by a small explosive attached to his cowl, which wasn't even powerful to hurt Two-Face who was standing right next to him.
The explosive was on his cowl, which isn't made of the same material as the rest of his Batsuit. Here you can see a glass like (not saying the cowl is made out of glass) crack in the cowl (All Star Batman #2), obviously cracks like that can't happen to cloth/kevlar (the Batsuit is made out of that stuff). It's not fair to say this proves Batman using the energy absorption is OOC when we've seen no proof whatsoever that his cowl incorporates that energy absorption tech.
Moreover, All Star Batman #2 came out on November 2016. Justice League Vol. 3 #41 came out/released during May 2018. Don't you see a problem with that? As far we know, Bruce didn't have his energy absorption tech Pre- JL Issue 41, trying to show it's OOC with an instance before that tech was shown is illogical for obvious reasons. And, this is complete PIS. Batsuit has tanked way bigger explosions and way more powerful energy attacks multiple times, like he's withstood Kryptonian heat vision (Batman/Superman #20), took Superboy (Jon Kent)'s heat vision with no damage (Trinity Vol. 2 #1), tanked a bazooka with no damage whatsoever at all(Batman Vol. 2 #15), he's tanked a huge explosion (Batman: Joker's Daughter). Batman being taken out by such a small explosion is an immense low showing, nothing more.
Or, even in the issue before the scans you posted (Justice League Vol. 3 #40), this super energy absorbing Batsuit would have been of great help when the Watchtower was crashing down from space and nearly burning up in atmospheric re-rentry.
You're assuming he can absorb the combined energy of atomspheric re-entry. The Batsuit never had such an AoE effect of energy absorption. So, debunked.
Depending how large the Watchtower is, the energy released by atmospheric re-entry really isn't that much. This calculation done on Physics StackExchange puts the total energy release of a starship going through atmospheric re-entry and then actually slamming into the ground as around the energy of 7 Hiroshima nukes. And that is likely a vast over-estimation since it includes the energy released by the ship actually crashing onto the Earth, not just the energy released by re-entry which is likely to be much lesser. This is actually pretty simple physics, and I could easily do a more accurate estimation calculation, though I held back since I wasn't sure whether you wouldn't want me to use my own calculations - if you're fine with it, I can include one in my next post.
To compare with current nukes, it seems like average nukes used nowadays are between 100-170 kilotons - ie. they release more energy than atmospheric re-entry, even by that wild over-exaggeration which we used. Since, by your own scaling, you showed T'Challa's grenades are way above that level, the fact that Batman doesn't think his suit is good enough to protect from energy re-entry should prove it definitely won't be good against T'Challa's grenades. Either that or it's just totally out-of-character for Batman to use it, to the point that he'd rather let his colleagues and friends in the Justice League possible die instead of use it - which means he wouldn't want to use it in this battle either way!
Sure, sure. Tell me when the Batsuit absorbs energy AoE style, then we can talk.
And just to finish with this topic, has Batman ever used any of this tech more than once? Because if he hasn't, then he really doesn't use it in character, which makes all that tech a completely moot point in this battle. I'm already like 90% sure the energy manipulation Batsuit has only been used once for literally two panels, and I don't recall the energy deflector device Lucius built being used again either. Admittedly, I'm not sure whether the chaff grenades were ever used again.
I can't recall an instance where he could have successfully used any of these pieces of tech, but didn't. I do remember a few JL/JLA villains, but Batman's gear isn't deflecting/reflecting/absorbing energy attacks like the omega beams any time soon.
Anyways, I already believe I've completely proven why none of that tech is going to be of any use in this battle, but I thought it's be easier to just shut this topic down if none of that tech is in-character to use, rather than wasting time arguing about all this stuff when Batman would never use it anyway.
Batman's Earthquake Punches
Okay, first I want to disprove your notion that Lord Havok "tanked a hit from Lobo" (which you conveniently didn't include any scans for). In the actual comic, it's pretty clear that Havok was hurt and thrown quite far by that hit
There is no sign that he was hurt, but he did get thrown back a bit, yes. That's what the Vine classifies as a tank, maybe getting hurt by a hit but proceeding without much damage.
Anyways, I think using just that feat to represent Lord Havok's durability is way overselling him.
In the first scan, she does some superficial damage to Havok despite not channeling any animal, and in the second scan she staggers Havok just as much as (if not more than) Batman did in the scan you provided. To be fair, as I showed in the third scan, she was channeling the powers of a poisonous frog, but that wouldn't have increased her strength at all.
...um, what the hell are you talking about? All she did was push his head. Congrats, she is capable of pushing Havok's head. Guess Havok doesn't weight much. Meanwhile, Batman caused enough pain, at least enough pain that Havok had to grab his jaw cause of the pain.
In fact, even in the scan you showed, Black Canary's cry was able to do more damage to Havok than Batman's gloves (the cry made Havok scream in pain,
Meh. When Canary uses the Canary Cry against high tiers and above (obviously she wouldn't hold back against them nearly as much as normal), it has been capable of blowing up Amazo's head (Justice League Of America Vol. 2 #24). Pretty representative of the Canary Cry's power. No shame for Havok to be hurt by that.
Furthermore, another issue with your plan of using these seismic gloves is that, as your scan showed, Batman keeps them in his utility belt. He can't just turn them on with a thought, he needs to dig them out of his utility belt, put them on, and then activate them. How exactly do you think Batman will get that amount of time in this battle? T'Challa won't just stand there waiting for Bruce to put on these gloves, and if Bruce does try to wear them, T'Challa would gut him before he even puts them on.
Through regrouping. First, he can use this omega beam like cable (Batman: The Dark Knight Vol. 1 #2)
Should be a hurdle to pass through. Then with FTE+ lvl combat speed, Bruce grabs the gloves. I can show instances of Batman using his gear tactically if needed.
For example, when a bunch of supervillains attack the League, why does Batman just stand back and do nothing instead of using those seismic knuckles to get in the fight?
Instead of using his seismic knuckles against Gotham, Batman does a couple of ineffectual attacks, blows up a ton of property, and then just calls the Justice League for help. While Gotham was too powerful to be taken down by seismic knuckles after he scaled up his power to defeat Superman later in the issue, initially he was vulnerable enough to Batman's kicks and explosives that the seismic knuckles would have packed a real punch. The fact that Batman didn't even try using them is pretty telling - either they aren't standard gear or he just never ever uses them in character.
Batman Vol. 3 #5 came out on October 2016. That's not May 2018.
Has he ever used those knuckles before or since? Because right now I'm thinking either they aren't standard gear
We agreed in the PM on a composite gear.
or he never used them in character; either way, they're irrelevant to this fight
You'd need to show instances of it being useful but Batman still not using it to prove its OOC
Your Counters To Batman's Other Gear
These feats mean nothing without piercing durability feats for the characters you mentioned. You yourself said in comics piercing durability can be different from other forms of durability, citing Wonder Woman as an example. Keeping in that spirit, what piercing durability feats do Blockbuster, OMACs, and Lobo have which make them so impressive?
Generally I place piercing durability as a different durability if said character has shown different piercing durability than other durabilities. IIRC piercing is just concentrated force.
Furthermore, I can show that Batarangs don't actually have such great piercing power consistently.
There's a problem with your anti-feats...that being you're forgetting that Bruce has blunt force batarangs. Piercing attacks like batarangs generally don't just KO like that, making those blunt force batarangs. Moreover, all your anti-feats are Post-Crisis. The feats I've shown are Post Flashpoint. Don't you see a problem with that? yes, I know the OMAC feat is from The Red Hood story arc but I'm using the feat as part of the Post Flashpoint canon and not as part of the Post Crisis Batman's piercing. Since Red Hood story arc is canon to Post Flashpoint. Furthermore, I can debunk all your anti-feats based on the batarangs' feats:
- Scan 1: Slices the barrels of multiple guns (Challengers Of The Unknown Vol. 3 #11)
- Scan 2: Cuts a metallic robotic tentacle in half. (Justice Society Of America Vol. 3 #6)
- Scan 3: Pierces Gorilla Grodd, who has took a beating from Wally West. (JLA Classified #3
- Scan 4: Cuts Etrigan. (Green Arrow Vol. 3 #6)
- Scan 5: Cuts off a robot's head. (JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice)
- Scan 6: Slices metal chains in half. (Detective Comics #591)
- Scan 1: Goes through concrete. (Batman: Child Of Dreams)
- Scan 2: Cuts a gun. (Batman Incorporated Vol. 1 #3)
How fast do they move? I've shown that T'Challa is a bullet timer, so if these are slow, I think T'Challa can still dodge. Either way, I've shown that they won't pierce the vibranium.
I don't think you get my point. I'm saying Batman can throw a punch but as he tags BP he can launch the batarangs. In very CQC. But if that isn't enough, he can tag T'Challa with his his throwing speed and batarang spreads. His batarang spreads go up to 8 batarangs (Batman: Gotham Knights #65) and even up to 18 batarangs (JLA #31). As for throwing speed, Batman has tagged Deadshot (who has dodged a sniper shot (Deadshot Vol. 2 #2)) with a batarang
Not going to work. Even without his powers, T'Challa was able to keep up with and battle Kraven after being tagged by a potent neurotoxin.
I've shown Bruce launching a dozen+ tranqs, one neurotoxin resistance feat isn't enough when Batman can shoot T'Challa with so much tranqs. I'd need feats of Black Panther resisting a stronger dose or a huge amount of them.
So those flashbangs aren't as powerful as you claim.
Yes, but they still blinded a block level Superman. Batman did make him bleed but but the kryptonite was in extreme close range when Batman was punching him. With the city block electrical attack, the ring was frozen up IIRC
Since Black Panther's mask has lenses which can filter out intense light (Black Panther Vol. 3 #55),
How intense? Intense enough to blind a city block level being like weakened Superman? Actually, have some more feats of Bruce' flashbangs intense light:
- Scan 1: Flashbang blinds a low mid to mid-mid tiersh Hulk ripoff. (Superman/Batman #20)
- Scan 2: Flashbang blinds Dark Supergirl. (Supergirl Vol. 5 #5)
Also, what stops AoE explosives one-shotting the lenses?
Any feats for how strong this is?
It restrained a medium sized giant.
Going to elaborate on some other gear that might be useful. Now granted, the magnetic batarnags and potentially the freeze ray gun might not be standard gear, but it should be fine since we agreed on a Composite Standard Gear
- Scan 1: Utility belt emits an EMP that shuts off the entire arkham asylum. (Batman Vol. 2 #16)
- Scan 2: EMP batarang. (Justice League Of America Vol. 5 #14)
- Scan 3: Freeze ray gun. (Forever Evil Aftermath: Batman Vs. Bane)
- Scan 4: Magnetic batarangs stick up some Rocket Reds (a mid tiersh Russian Army Force) together. (Green Lantern Vol. 4 #16)
EMPs should be enough to shut off T'Challa's tech, with batarang spreads and Batman's throwing speed being enough to tag T'Challa with that EMP batarang. Same thing applies to magnetic batarang. Or he could just use the EMP and magnetic batarangs as a weapon mid combat, like he did against The Batman Who Laughs (Dark Nights: Metal #6) and Ra's Al Ghul (Batman: The Chalice)
With the magnetic batarangs, sticking T'Challa up to whatever should allow Bruce to do whatever he wants (with gear) to finish off Panther. Or to serve as incap. The freeze ray gun would tag Black Panther, due to the fact it could be used mid combat/mid CQC. Or use gear tactically, flashbangs and batarangs spreads followed by the freeze ray gun. Another tactic would be restraining through grapnel gun. It's easily one of Batman's most consistent tactics, I can show you lots of instances with it if need be. Anyway, it should restrain T'Challa. It has a 15 ton breaking strain (Batman Confidential #2), so unless Panther is suddenly a 15 tonner he ain't breaking out of it.
As for how it would tag The Panther, Black Lightning (who has casually bullet timed 5+ bullets) couldn't react to it wrapping around him (Superman/Batman #4) so it should tag T'Challa.
Counters - The Defense Of The Panther's Gear
if those are the lengths T'Challa will go to in order to win when he has to, I don't think you can say teleportation is out of character just because he didn't use it in 2 fights in which he was winning quite comfortably.
Two fights he was winning comfortably? Not really. He wasn't beating Namor with that level of ease, he was matching him. And he didn't use teleportation even tho it would have allowed him to beat Namor comfortably. Plus, there are other instances where T'Challa wasn't winning comfortably and still didn't use teleportation. What about when T'Challa went up against Black Bolt (controlled by the telepath Supergiant) and Supergiant (Infinity #6)? Why did he let Black Bolt use his voice against himself and the Illuminati instead of teleporting behind Black Bolt and Supergiant then try and use any of his gear to take them down?
The Omnipotent Low Herald Level Piercing Resistance Batsuit
Here is an album containing almost 20 instances of Batman's suit being cut through like nothing by street-tiers - in a wide range of stories ranging from many authors and eras from classic comics to Snyder's run on Batman. I'd upload them as scans but there are literally so many I don't know if ComicVine would even let me do it as one stack.
Let's go through that lovely out of context album!
- Scan 1-2 - Batman Vol. 2 #40: The feats I'm using are from Post-Crisis, not Post Flashpoint. Sort of illogical to use anti-feats using Batman's Post-Flashpoint Batsuits, even tho I'm using feats for a completely different Post-Crisis Batsuit
- Scan 3 - Batman The Chalice: The Batsuit isn't even pierced in this scan....
- Scan 4 - The Dark Knight Vol. 2 #29: Again, a Post Flashpoint anti-feat
- Scan 5 - Batman Vol. 2 #6: Why do you love using Post Flashpoint anti-feats for Post Crisis???
- Scan 6-7 - Batman and Robin Vol. 2 #7: Post Flashpoint anti-feat
- Scan 8 - Batman: Gotham After Midnight #7 : Congrats! You actually used a Post-Crisis anti-feat. There's a problem tho. Batman took out and wore the waterproof Batsuit variant before going to fight Killer Croc in that scan of yours. That variant has no piercing durability feats at all. There's no proof that it has the same piercing durability as the Batsuit Bruce normally wears.
- Scan 9 - Batman #510 - Being fair this was in Batmans' Classic blue and grey costume. Not the one he was wearing in my piercing durability feats
- Scan 10 - Batman #632 - Finally, an anti-feat with no context. Still, this is an outlier anti-feat. Aside from the 2 piercing durability feats I had shown, a sword has bended trying to pierce the Batsuit (Batman 80 Page Giant 2000)
- Scan 11 - Uncited: A knife has done nothing to Batman (Detective Comics #656) so this seems like another outlier anti-feat
- Scan 12 - Uncited: Outlier anti-feat due to Batman having a knife bounce off his armor (Detective Comics #639)
- Scan 13 - Detective Comics Vol. 1 Annual #3: Again, this was in the classic armor
- Scan 14 - Batman Special #1: Again, this was in the classic armor. Also, this comic is from 1984 which is before Crisis On Infinite Earths. That's Pre-Crisis. I wonder how a Pre-Crisis anti-feat counts for Post-Crisis
- Scan 15 - Batman #650: You're using Jason Todd cutting Batsuit. There's a problem tho, Jason's blade has been stated to be no ordinary blade in the same arc (Batman #635) so this is more of a piercing feat to Jason's blade than an anti-feat to Batsuit
- Scan 16 - Batman #656: A normal knife apparently isn't capable of piercing the Batsuit (Batman #635) so this seems like an outlier anti-feat. Although, why wouldn't this be a feat for Man-Bat claws? AFAIK Man-Bat claws have no anti-feats, meaning it could just be a feat for Man-Bat claws
- Scan 17 - Batman Confidential #14: My OMAC and batarang feats should be enough to counter this anti-feat
- Scan 18-19 - Detective Comics Vol. 2 #26: Post Flashpoint so doesn't matter
Anyways, I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and check whether you just meant the Rebirth suit was the really durable one, but that's not true either, as we see below:
Batman's suit gets stabbed straight through by KGBeast, a street tier villain, using a broken off wooden stick, not even an actual blade. In fact, the creator of the Rebirth suit (Scott Snyder) himself wrote this issue, so I'd assume he knows what he is doing with this scan and isn't low-balling either. Anyways, unless you've got a ton more "herald-level piercing resistance" scans, I think we're done with that.
Post Flashpoint anti-feat so doesn't matter.
Good for Batman, but Panther's claws have feats of cutting through things other than metals too
I know, I was just trying to show Panther's claws won't one-shot Batman's armor.
it was in the reference (#15), but since I'm assuming it wasn't too clear where it was, I decided to stop using that sort of formatting in this post. Anyways, here is the scan again:
I saw it. I'm just not seeing T'Challa cut the dragon at all. When exactly did he cut the dragom?
As we see here, much to Namor's surprise, T'Challa's claws have no trouble cutting straight through him. We already know how durable you think Namor is, so I won't bother with too many feats beyond showing that lasers which cut through titanium don't even begin to pierce Namor's skin.
Cool, not as good as an OMAC or a batarang. Also even if T'Challa could pierce Bruce, it wouldn't matter much. Bruce has managedto fight through getting stabbed in the head, having knives stuck through his lungs and body twice, having his face burned up, being cut through the shoulders and eye (Batman Vol. 2 #40). A few slashes aren't going to significantly slow him down or anything.
Anyways, to conclude this section: Batman has low herald-level piercing resistance, and yes, Bruce can easily endure through the slashes even if he gets cut
Glad we agree.
Panther's Weapon Disrupters
Which is fine, because I have composite standard gear for T'Challa.
Never said otherwise.
T'Challa has used the tech to completely disable a mech robot on another planet controlled by the Skrull's - so presumably that robot was as advanced as Skrull technology is
What makes you think that's the same tech T'Challa used on guns? It probably isn't, given how Wakandan disrupters only shut of the Skrull's guns and not much else. Unlike the instances when the weapon disrupters disrupted the guns, there seems to be some sort of wave coming out of Panther's hand. Like, an EMP. And Batman's tech is EMP resistant. The Batplane has been completely unaffected by an EMP equal to that of a 50 megaton nuke (The OMAC Project #6)
Panther's disrupters are Wakandan disrupters, since he uses Wakandan tech, so the feat should still be somewhat applicable.. But yeah, the Skrulls instance wasn't from his suit but rather from his castle - I just wanted to show that the disrupters can take out tech which is more advanced than human guns. Anyways, I already did so in the showing above, so I guess this one isn't too important.
Hmm, fair enough.
Pretty much everything in the "Countering Batman's Gear" section. I won't be hacking anything though, just using this to disable it.
How can Kimoyo disable Batman's tech? When every piece of gear I mentioned doesn't even have a system to disable. You'd need to hack into a system to disable, unless you have access already. Anyway, even assuming Batman's gear has a system T'Challa won't be able to hack into it. The Batcomputer (Batman's lenses are connected to it) can defend from T'Challa. The Batcomputer's hacking defense were enough to the point not even Cyborg (a planetary technopath) could gain access to it (Justice League Of America Vol. 4 #2)
Oops.... you know how I proved that none of that gear you mentioned above is going to work and even if it did, Batman wouldn't use it in character? Guess it doesn't matter either way since I just showed the disrupter can and will work on Bruce's tech
What kind of fanfic is this lol?
his isn't really relevant since that's more of an explosive attack than anything like the energy daggers
If that's not enough for you I already posted Bruce tanking Kryptonian heat vision and a heat vision blast from Superboy. But for other energy durability feats like surviving a blast from amped John Stewart (Green Lantern: Rebirth #20 and a blast from Kilowag that one-shotted Hal Jordan and hurt Superman (Superman/Batman #29). Yes, I know Bruce was one-shotted in both of these. But the Batsuit took no damage at all. And that's what T'Challa is trying to cut, the Batsuit.
Anyways, Black Panther's energy daggers were able to pierce an alternate reality Terrax, who was still the herald of Galactus - and thus, by definition has herald-level durability lol. So even if the Batsuit was as durable as you claim, the daggers could still pierce through.
How durable was alternate universe Terrax? Because you can't scale the standard versions of characters to alternate universes. EX: 616 Thanos has telepathy. Ultimate Thanos has shown before that he doesn't. Alternate versions don't have to be as powerful as their main counterparts, unless there's proof they are. Also, 616 Terrax was never herald level. More like high tier.
Where exactly does Panther say he analyzed/synthesized the force field's wave algorithm? All he says is that the force field has an algorithm which could be analyzed/synthesized, not that he actually did so or that he made any adjustments to the daggers so they would disable it.
So you think Black Panther said that for no reason at all, when the most probable reason he said that would be the energy daggers since they cut through Tony's forcefield?
Anyway, here's more proof the energy daggers can easily cut through force fields:
What feats does this forcefield have above Batman's energy and piercing durability?
We don't know whether he was trying to paralyze Kraven or not because Kraven either dodged or deflected all of T'Challa's energy dagger strikes with his own dagger. As it shows in your own scan.
T'Challa clearly tagged him in this panel:
He could have easily paralyzed Kraven yet he didn't.
Anyways, here's another instance of Black Panther using the energy daggers' nerve scrambling abilities - this time to throw off Winter Soldier's brainwashing
He isn't even using it to paralyze...do you have an actual showing of T'Challa using the energy daggers' paralyzing abilities in combat? T'Challa didn't even use them next issue (Black Panther Vol. 3 #7) against Kraven.
Nor did he use them in the Namor fight.
I already explained why neither of those have any feats of working on tech which is anything like energy daggers,
Black Panther's energy daggers work on Ultron! Ultron, the same android who can drain power from Iron Man's own armor with but a touch (example 1) (example 2)! If Ultron, who has feats of absorbing much great sources of power than either Batman's energy deflector or absorber, can't absorb the energy daggers, what makes you think Batman's tech can?
Ultron never tried to absorb the energy daggers. He didn't even try to absorb Iron Man's blast (which was affecting Ultron, albeit limitedly. Per Tony's own words) so it doesn't seem like Ultron was trying to use energy absorption at all.
Panther's Energy Shield
What makes you say the energy spear didn't go through the Wakandans? It clearly did considering that they died. If you mean that the energy spear wasn't shown coming out, that's because when it hits a target, it doesn't necessarily come right back out but rather gets absorbed/turned purple or whatever, as can be seen here:
The purple is a poison FYI. She didn't use her poison against the Wakandans (as it didn't appear). Also in your own scan her spear blasts and poison went right through Corvus Glaive, coming out so that kinda supports my argument that she didn't use higher levels of spear power.
Of course, since each comic book panel is a snapshot, it's equally possible that the artist drew an instance right before the spear left their bodies.
I'm not sure why the artist would do that instead of drawing the poison as well, but going by occam's razor -- Proxima not using higher levels of spear power and the poison makes fewer assumptions (and is more logical) than the artist drawing the instance right before the spear left their bodies for no reason whatsoever when all other artists draw the spear leaving the bodies and draw the purple poison as well.
Either way, there's certainly no evidence to think that Proxima Midnight was holding back against Black Panther, because there would be absolutely no reason for a cold-blooded villain like her to do so.
Eh, maybe she didn't want to waste some of the spear energy and poison.
Panther's Vibranium Suit
I already posted a ton of durability feats in the "Countering Batman's Other Gear" section, so these are definitely not one-shotting T'Challa either way
You haven't posted a single noteworthy blunt force durability to tank earthquake punches that caused Havok pain
. If that wasn't enough though, read the section I dedicated to these gloves where I explained why these were overhyped by you, and how Batman never uses them in character anyways.
Even if they were powerful, T'Challa can still take at least one punch from them,
and then redirect the energy right back at Batman through an AoE and one-shot Batman instead.
You'd need proof the Suit is capable of redirecting such amounts of the kinetic energy
It doesn't matter though, since T'Challa will just disable them with his weapons disrupter if Batman goes OOC and uses them
Not very likely.
As I already mentioned, T'Challa's armor releases kinetic energy, so the deflection system won't do anything. And the impact will be more similar to a punch since it will be kinetic force, not an explosion.
It's never absorbed kinetic energy or any energy in the same magnitude as to what Panther's gauntlets increase his striking power to.
But it has, Da Fan's GL ring blast.
Black Panther can charge his suit with static electricity; this could surprise Batman during combat
Surprise him how exactly? Hurt him? That depends on the volts of the static electricity. The Batsuit is heavily insulated against electrical attacks,
- Scan 1: Suit is insulated enough to protect against the electricity of a guy who has the combined electricity of Gotham City. (Detective Comics #646)
- Scan 2: Tanks a electric shock from Clayface. Clayface's electric powers have been enough to one-shot murder several people (Shadow Of The Bat #75). (Detective Comics #735)
- Scan 3: Suit is insulated against Mime's 10,000 electric shock. (Batman #412)
Another notable feat for T'Challa's energy gauntlets; they can shatter a cage which Superior Iron Man couldn't break out of, despite not having been in battle so they couldn't have absorbed any kinetic energy beforehand (Avengers Vol. 5 #43). Yeah, there's absolutely no way Batman is taking a hit from these.
A good portion of Tony's suit was broken up so I highly doubt this was anywhere near the suit's full striking power. Did his suit work enough to even have any notable striking?
Just to reiterate, Batman is not absorbing energy from these blows because they are kinetic energy, which Batman has never absorbed
T'Challa's suit can form a jetpack which he can use to gain some aerial distance if he feels like he needs it - though this tech is rarely used
Bruce too has rarely used tech that allows him to get some distance if needed:
- Scan 1: Utility belt has teleportation activated by the press of a button. (JLA #56)
- Scan 3-2: Batsuit basically gives Batman flight. (Batman Vol. 2 #10)
T'Challa's suit can shoot ropes which appear to resemble vibranium out of his gauntlets; they are strong enough to completely restrain the Winter Soldier and would certainly capture Batman if Panther tags him with them
The problem is tagging Bruce which isn't happening due to his reaction feats. Moreover, based on what is Winter Soldier stronger than Batman? Bruce has consistent multi ton strength:
- Scan 1: Casually holds a Crocodile's mouth open. Crocs can have up to 16,000 newtons of bite force, plugging that into this newton to ton converter shows that that's 1.6 tons of bite force. Fact that Bruce could do that so easily and casually (makes him a 2 to 4 tonner. (All Star Batman #11)
- Scan 2: Casually lifts a concrete column, despite being previously beaten up. A normal weight concrete weights 2400 kg (or 1.2 tons) per cubic meter, so this is a very impressive feat. (All Star Batman #13)
- Curbstomps Solomon Grundy with the dionesium amp. This means Post-Dionesium Bruce's strength>>Pre-Dionesium Batman's striking (since Grundy used to take beatings from Pre-Dionesium to get put down) and Pre-Dionesium Batman has very impressive multi ton striking power:
- Scan 1: Almost one-shots Batwoman with a single punch, same Batwoman who took hits from Killer Croc who in turn casually smashed concrete walls and a foundation pillar. (Batwoman Vol. 1 #24)
- Scan 2: Despite being weakened and having his left side paralyzed, Bruce punches Jack In The Box through a concrete column. (Detective Comics Vol. 2 #3)
- Scan 3: One-shots Killer Croc, who has durability feats like running through concrete wall with no damage and having a building collapse on him but later seen with no damage (Batman/Superman Annual #2). (Detective Comics Vol. 2 #28)
- Scan 4: One-shots a medium sized mecha with a single kick. The fact that he can so casually exert enough force to dismember and one-shot this mecha, thus one-shotting the gears is very very impressive. (Batwing #23)
And that's Post Flashpoint Batman, have some feats for the arguably stronger Post Crisis Batman:
- Scan 1: Casually restrains Hawkgirl with one hand. Hawkgirl has held up 5 tons with only one hand, so her overall strength should be 10 tons at least. Granted, Bruce looked like he was using some sort of technique but even assuming the technique took care of half of Hawkgirl's strength, this makes Batman an easy 5 tonner. (Batman and The Outsiders Vol. 2 #3)
- Scan 2: Manages to stop a large, multi ton concrete (pillar?) with falling without too much trouble. (JLA: Our Worlds At War)
- Scan 3: Temporarily matches strength with Clayface (who has casual threw a truck disguised as Cheetah (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #160)). Now, I'm not saying Batman can casually throw a truck since matching strength with Clayface was temporary. But it's still an incredibly impressive feat. (Detective Comics #607)
- Scan 4-5: Manages to use his strength on door to contain a room sized explosion. (Batman #412)
- Scan 6: Overpowers Deathstroke, who has overpowered Nightwing without too much trouble. Nightwing has held up an Orca's mouth with some strain, Orcas have a bite force of 9.5 tons. That should make Slade 10+ tons. Now, Bruce was using some leverage hear but even assuming the leverage took care of half the feat, that still makes Batman a 5-8 tonner. (Green Arrow/Black Canary Wedding Special)
- With some effort holds up part of a collapsed building long enough for some monks to escape. (Batman Annual #21)
So yeah, I'm going to need some good feats from Bucky.
Physicals and Martial Arts Comparison
Dionesium Speed and Strength Boost
This on the other hand? Not so much. As Alfred says in the scan above, the dionesium just healed all the damage his body had gone through, making him faster and stronger than before since he no longer had any injuries which affected him. It doesn't do anything beyond that, so the increases in speed and strength are quite minimal, and t be honest, they're hardly even noticeable in the stories which come after this. So, this
Based on feats, It's a huge boost. Just let me walk you through all the notable injuries Bruce took pre-dionesium. Not going to post scans since that's way too much, but I'll cite the issues.
- Batman Vol. 2 #33: Has his heart stop for a few minutes
- Batman: Birth Of The Demon (Post-Crisis story but it's canon to Post Flashpoint): Was radioactively poisoned, lit on fire then had a shovel stuck through his gut
- Batman #671 (Post Crisis story but it's canon to Post Flashpoint. Can provide proof if needed): Stabbed by a stick pole through his body and lung
- Batman Vol. 2 #6: He is dehydrated and starved for a whole week, gets the shit beaten out of him then has a blade stuck through him
- Batman: The Dark Knight Vol. 2 #14: In addition to being beaten by Scarecrow and being dosed with Super Fear Toxin, he takes a scythe all the way through his upper chest and neck
- Batman: The Dark Knight Vol. 2 #15: Essentially almost all his blood is drained to save Gotham
- Batman: The Dark Knight Vol. 2 #29: Is bitten by a Man-Bat in the lungs
- Batman Vol. 2 #40: Bruce is stabbed through the shoulders, in the eyes, lungs and head and proceeds to have his face burned
Overall, the poor guy took some pretty serious injuries so I'd think the dionesium boost to be pretty decent. Granted, a lot of these weren't permanent but It would be delusional to think they didn't have any long term effects on Batman's body.
Want more proof? Let's look at how Batman's spar with Bronze Tiger goes: one instance from before the Dionesium boost, and then another instance from after.
Initially, Bronze Tiger takes Batman by surprise and one-shots him, but in the next fight Batman and Bronze Tiger are pretty much evenly matched (with maybe a slight edge to Bronze Tiger) until the fight is interrupted by someone else poisoning Batman.
However, their post-Dionesium fight goes pretty differently.
Bronze Tiger dispatches Batman with ease within the space of a single page and like 2 hits. In fact, he even flat out says Batman is slowerthan before. Also, Batman isn't able to break out of Bronze Tiger's hold until Bronze Tiger lets him go, so he clearly hasn't become much stronger either.
This is hilarious. That first fight between Bronze Tiger and Batman from 'Tec #485, is Pre-Crisis! That's not even canon to Post-Crisis, let alone to Post Flashpoint. Bring an instance canon to Post Flashpoint, then you might have an argument.
he even flat out says Batman is slower than before
And then Batman states that Bronze Tiger is faster than before, so it's not about Bruce being slower than before.
Bane handily dispatches Batman, despite the so-called boost he received to his speed and strength.
Bruce wasn't trying to win that much. That fight was just a distraction so that Catwoman would free everyone who wouldn't leave Gotham (Batman Vol. 3 #18). Seemingly the reason Batman didn't try to end the fight with gadgets. Granted, it was moronic for Bruce not to try to beat Bane but what would you expect from the idiotic Tom King Batman?
Despite all the punishment Bane took from fighting all those other villains (who Batman recruited to slow Bane down), Bane still has the upper hand in this fight for the most part! The only reason Batman takes him down is by catching him by surprise with a headbutt.
1) Batman almost never took any punishment from fighting Batman's rouge gallery. 2) I have another instance of the dionesium amping Bruce more decently than by a small amount. Let's take Lady Shiva's fight against Batman (Nightwing Vol. 3 #0), she was easily beating him. Granted, she poisoned Bruce with a poison shuriken but I have multiple feats of Batman fighting through powerful poisons and such, even performing amazing physical feats after them. I can show such feats if needed.
But when Bruce fought her Post-Dionesium, he managed to match her (Detective Comics #956)
3) Let's have another comparison. When Batman fought Nightwing (Nightwing Vol. 3 #30), they were matching each other. Then in Rebirth, Future Tim Drake came in and was stomping Nightwing along with Present Tim Drake, Red Hood, and Damien Wayne (Detective Comics #968)
See what I'm saying? Pre-Dionesium Batman>=Nightwing<<Future Tim Drake. Yet Post-Dionesium Bruce managed to fight Future Tim evenly (Superman Vol. 4 #37). That's 3 instances of the boost being notable (Future Tim, Solomon Grundy, Lady Shiva), meanwhile you have only 1 valid instance. So yeah, the boost being notable is more consistent than otherwise.
(which is unlikely since Alfred said the boost was because all the scarring Batman had was gone, but clearly a lot of it should be back by now considering he's been beaten up since then, such as those two fights against Bane)
The beatings and injuries he took aren't as many, nor as notable as the injuries he took Pre-Dionesium.
In conclusion, since the boost from dionesium is still active, the boost to Batman's strength and speed is quite notable.
Glad we agree.
Batman's Durability & Strength Vs, Panther's Striking Power & Strength
So after the last section, I guess we both agree T'Challa is stronger than Batman?
Not really. And that would only count for Post Flashpoint even if true, I posted a lot of extremely impressive strength feats for Post Crisis Batman.
It's pretty clear that not only does T'Challa hit him once and then slice him, but Man-Ape is knocked out for a bit until the explosion wakes him up. The slice is what knocks him out, but it still requires T'Challa's strength.
That's absurd logic. I guess T'Challa anti metal claws piercing Namor shows BP has mid tier strength? What about Wolverine? He has pierced Cho Hulk, Banner Hulk, and even Power Gem Thanos. Does Logan have high tier to high teambuster level strength? Don't think so. That's just the sharpness of their piercing weapons.
highly doubt Solomon Grundy weighs 5 tons. Or even a quarter of that.
That's not what's so impressive about it, it's just impressive that Batman's strength is enough to one-shot a character capable of taking a beating from Pre-Dionesium Batman.
So lifting him up isn't as impressive as T'Challa taking down a 5 ton rhino,
Again, it's not about Grundy's weight.
and we already established how that instance was PIS anyways
"We"? Speak for yourself.
Dude, Sentry or Hulk would destroy Namor in a fight. Namor is a mid-tier, not a high-tier.
I know, they would win easily. Doesn't change that Namor is capable of withstanding a few hits from them. He also had multiple fights with the Thing, even winning.
But anyways, let's ignore that feat since it's really not necessary for my argument and I already got what I wanted from your response. :)
Yeah. T'Challa has nuke+++++++ striking. Sure. Batman gets one-shot curbstomped. I concede this match.
T'Challa easily breaks a stone/metal bar with a backhand
It looks like stone, not metal. Nothing metallic about it. Anyway, Batman has took getting hit through a concrete wall by Gotham with no damage at all (Batman Vol. 3 #4) so I'm confident he can tank this.
While weakened, T'Challa throws a spear straight through a stone wall
This pales in comparison to the feats I posted for Bruce, especially the Post-Crisis version's feats. Unless you think stone busting is beyond overpowering Deathstroke, stopping a large multi ton pillar from falling, etc.
T'Challa keeps an angry, 20 foot long, crocodile's jaws open for 3 pages, before escaping (Jungle Action Vol. 2 #10). For reference, scientists have done measurements of bite force in crocodiles, and scaled it up to a 20 foot crocodile, estimating:
According to this newton to ton converter, that's 3.5 tons. Nice, but the feats I've shown for Batman go up to 8 tons. Probably more since he matched Clayface.
This is an especially useful figure since, in the issue right before he beats Batman up, Bane struggles to break out of 2, 737 pounds of ice
First of all, Post Crisis Batman has better strength feats than Post Flashpoint Batman so I don't think this proves anything even if Bane overpowered Post Flashpoint Batman. Second of all, when did Bane even overpower Post Flashpoint Batman? Third of all, Bane casually broke out of that. Zero sign of struggle. His more impressive strength feats would be this (Batman Eternal #31)
And he was Off Venom. So even if Bane overpowered Post Flashpoint Batman, it's no shame.
T'Challa rips open a plane's cargo hatch while it is submerged in water
Not trying to lowball, this is an impressive multi ton strength feat. But I'm not sure how to quantify that to next to Batman's strength feats. I've quantified most of Bruce's multi ton strength feats, so I'm not exactly sure how this compares.
While tied up, T'Challa snaps metal chains and completely destroys the wooden waterwheel he was chained to
Honestly this is a very low end feat for Batman's strength, most (if not all) my strength feats easily surpass this. Just to prove Bruce can break metal chains, here's an instance of him doing it casually (Batman: Jekyll and Hyde #3)
Meanwhile T'Challa was stated to struggle with his bondage:
This seems like more of an anti-feat than a feat...I mean T'Challa struggled a bit with a feat that Batman casually replicates.
and completely destroys the wooden waterwheel he was chained to
TBH destroying wood isn't impressive. It's an incredibly low street feat, real life humans have done that IIRC. Granted, this was a whole waterwheel but this is at best what, a ton?
T'Challa lifts up a slab of concrete that looks significantly larger than he is to save a child
He strained significantly, heck he might have blacked out:
Meanwhile we have Batman containing a room explosion, overpowering Deathstroke, matching Clayface (if briefly), etc. Overall I think Batman can overpower Black Panther in grapple
First of all, Batman didn't "tank" hits from Shiva, Azrael, or Heretic. Heretic especially was doing some pretty serious damage to Bruce, and Bruce was staggered and hurt a bit by Shiva and Azrael as well in those scans.
We're having a miscommunication here. My definition of tank is taking a hit, but later being mostly undamaged. And, Batman took those hits with almost no damage. He did feel pain probably but pain is a far cry from being decently damaged.
Compared to T'Challa's strength though, taking hits from people who one-shot Nightwing isn't nearly enough
I think you're underestimating Nightwing's durability.
- Scan 1: Takes a hit from a house/small building sized monster with no damage whatsoever. (Nightwing Vol. 4 #29)
- Scan 2: A hit from Deathstroke that bent a metal railing doesn't damage Dick. (Nightwing Vol. 2 #80)
- Withstands multiple huge explosions (Nightwing Vol. 3 #16)
He's pretty durable, I don't see T'Challa casually one-shotting him. The best striking power feats you showed thus far would be busting a stone bar, the rest are either PIS (Namor), unquantifiable (Alien guy in body protection gear) or out of context (Panther only took out Man-Ape due to claws) or strength feats that only matter in grapple (unless you show T'Challa easily using strength techniques on characters as skilled as Batman).
eah, no. Just the crocodile feat puts T'Challa's strength level at Bane's level, if not higher. I already posted the 2 Bane vs Batman fights from Rebirth, but suffice to say, they didn't go well for Bruce.
..you do know there's a difference between strength and striking power? Right?
Since T'Challa is more durable, has better tech, is quicker, and is likely more skilled, T'Challa should have an even easier time beating Batman.
Not really. If you aren't convinced Batman can take hits from Panther, he's also took hits from Clayface (Shadow Of The Bat #75). Basil was using both his strength and striking power. Strength enough to throw a truck, striking enough to do this (Detective Comics Vol. 2 #15)
And he's took hits from Venom Amped Clayface (The Dark Knight Vol. 2 #3)
I can say with confidence that Batman can tank T'Challa's stone bar busting striking power . Hopefully you start providing impressive striking feats, since striking power is different than strength. Just because I can lift a chair easily, doesn't mean I can casually break/destroy it.
Batman's Speed Vs. Panther's Speed
Umm... never said it was.
You said he dodged the bullets:
T'Challa dodges sniper bullets
If you were trying to say it's impressive aim dodging, then you should have stated he evaded the shooters. Regardless, Batman has way more impressive aim dodging feats. In your scan, T'Challa evaded 4 shooters. Batman has evaded 5 shooters (Legends Of The Dark Knight #185), this is way more impressive than T'Challa's feat due to dozen+ of bullets being shot here. Meaning, the shooters had way more chances to tag Batman. Meanwhile, the 4 shooters BP evaded shot a single bullet each. But Batman has more impressive feats, like evading 10+ shooters (Batman: Gotham After Midnight #2)
Are you seriously telling me this is bullet timing? Bullet timing is only when it is clearly shown that the shots are fired before the character moves. Since the shots are fired in the same panel as when Batman dodges them, they weren't fired before Batman could move, and thus it is not an instance bullet timing. And no offense but that logic is horrible - "Batman said he dodged the bullets so it is bullet-timing". Aim-dodging is considered dodging bullets too. Unless Batman said he was bullet-timing, or it was explicitly shown that he only moved after the shots were fired, it is not bullet timing.
That's....some trash tier logic (no offense). Aim dodging isn't considered dodging the bullets (you can't dodge bullets before they're fired), it is considered evading the shooters. If Bruce meant something else, he would have stated that he evaded the shooter or something similar.
Anyways, here is another instance of T'Challa bullet timing. Notice how the art clearly shows that the bullet is fired before T'Challa moves, through the use of panels to indicate time progression
We don't get to see if Black Panther moved before the AIM scientist fired, so no that's not bullet timing. Panel to panel bullet timing is something like this, we see the shooter shooting and Batman not moving in the same panel the shooter fires. (Legends Of The Dark Knight #176).
Moreover, those AIM scientists weren't using guns with bullets and all. The AIM scientists were using blasts, specifically a stun blast (Avengers Vol. 1 #87)
So, from what you've shown, I'd have to say Bruce is certainly not a bullet-timer.
That's interesting....anyway, let me show Batman's most impressive bullet timing feats with some guns of the best muzzle velocity:
- Scan 1-2: Bruce dodges a sniper bullet. The narration states Bruce sensed the bullet as it was going through the air, so it's bullet timing. But what's so impressive about this? The narration also states the bullet was going at 1200 m/s, when converted into this m/s to mach converter, we can get a Mach 3.5 bullet. Let me rephrase that: Batman managed to dodge a mach 3.5 by sensing the air flow. That's just absurd. (Detective Comics #804)
- Scan 3: Dodges sniper gunfire. Bullet timing due to seeing the light of the bullets in the same panel we see Batman not moving, then in the next panel Batman dodges the gunfire. According to wikipedia, the average muzzle velocity of a sniper is between 800-1000 m/s. Let's assume the sniper was 900 m/s level, convert that into this m/s to mach converter and we get a mach 2.6 bullet. (Legends Of The Dark Knight #174)
Mach 3.5 and 2.6 bullets are way faster than your one bullet timing feat, even one of the fastest handguns (the 7.5 FK BRNO) is only 2000 fps, converted in this shows that's mach 1.8, and that's a more recent handgun (your scan is, from the art, a pre-2000s comic).
I'll agree with this; Batman's FTE feats are a bit better than T'Challa's.
Not just a bit, FAR better. Catwoman has reacted to a surprise hit from Tim Drake in the past, that alone makes her massively, massively faster than normal humans.
Clearly, T'Challa did more than just react to him. This can't really be shown in a comic, but it's pretty clear the writer wanted to show that T'Challa was moving so quickly that Logan was extremely surprised and astonished by the level of speed, not just that T'Challa can dodge Logan's attacks. If he just dodged like anyone else, Logan wouldn't be surprised and wouldn't exclaim how quick T'Challa is.
I can buy that Logan thought T'Challa was moving at incredible speeds. But I'm not sure how to quantify that. I don't know what it takes for Wolverine to be impressed by one's speed. At best, I can say that's a bit better than normal FTE level speeds
Wolverine once again says T'Challa is quicker than he is after T'Challa dodges an ambush from him
Basically the same counter as above. Tho how does this scan mean T'Challa is faster than Wolverine?
Black Panther dodges fire from Wakandan Special Forces agents wielding assault rifles
1) There is no proof he was bullet timing. We would need either special context (EX: T'Challa states that he dodged those bullets) or a scan similar (with the shooter not moving in the same panel the bullets were shot, then moving in the next panel) to this to say it's bullet timing (Captain America Vol. 4 #1)
2) What makes it more likely to not be bullet timing is the fact Black Panther has no reason to bullet time. That vibranium armor has allowed him to no sell 316 machine gun bullet rounds before (Black Panther Vol. 3 #7) so I see no reason why he would need to bullet time.
Black Panther dodges miniaturized missiles which can never miss
I'm not sure how to quantify the speed of these mini missiles. Some missiles (like heat seeking missiles) are as slow as mach 0.6, which is below the speed of sound by 0.4, and that's below the speed of bullets which would be below bullet timing.
T'Challa casually blitzes 4 attackers in the time it takes to say two words (
Batman's throwing, combat and reaction speed has been enough to dance around and blitz several League Of Assassin Ninjas (note that they were injected with the Man-Bat Serum) (Batman #656). Don't think I need to explain why LoA Ninja Man-Bats are>>>>normal humans.
T'Challa dodges Kraven and then hits him twice in quick succession while depowered (Black Panther: The Man Without Fear #520). This is impressive since Kaine, Spider-Man's physically superior clne, has failed to blitz Kraven.
I'm not sure how consistent that is. Speedwise Black Panther and Kraven seemed to be virtually even in one of their past fights (Black Panther Vol. 3 #6).
And Spider-Man (by the scaling you're using, it makes it look like T'Challa is faster than Spidey) has easily evaded and tagged Black Panther before (Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man #299)
I think this should show that T'Challa is still quicker than Bruce.
Not really. Your best feats thus far would be impressing Wolverine, which at best would be a bit beyond normal FTE. Batman's FTE feat against Catwoman is much better than that. Now let me show you one of Batman's most impressive speed feats, in his fight against Nightwing he was completely untouchable to Dick (Batman #600). Granted, Richard tagged Bruce twice but Batman wasn't expecting it. First time Batman literally stated "You got one for free", second time Batman was getting in the Batmobile then Richard suddenly punched him. Anyway, why is this such an impressive feat you ask? Let's look at Nightwing's combat and reaction speed feats:
- Scan 1: Matches speed with Cassandra Cain, who has blitzed a whole mansion at FTE speeds (Batgirl Vol. 1 Annual #1). (Legends Of The Dark Knight #184)
- Scan 2-3: Tags Wally West who, from the scans, seemed to be moving at massively casual FTE speeds (due to us not being able to see him, instead we just see a blur of red and some yellow). Before you scream outlier, this is quantified by Wally moving at massively casual FTE speeds. (The Titans Vol. 1 #20)
- Scan 4: Evades and dances out of an explosion. (Batman Annual #27)
Nightwing has very impressive combat and reaction feats, yet not even he can tag Batman.
I think this should show that Bruce is still quicker than T'Challa.
Batman's Endurance vs Panther's Endurance
I have to admit, this feat you showed for T'Challa is easily one of the best pain tolerance and endurance feats I have ever seen. There's one huge problem tho: This is a long term endurance feat. "But CIB, taking injuries and enduring it for days is obviously better than enduring through it in a single fight!" -- I think not. My issue is that none of these are at the same time, or in the same short period of time. The entire event takes place over the course of days, with Black Panther either unconscious or outside of fights for an extended period. Even walking in inhospitable air still lets you recover from your injuries (lets them scab up, bleeding stop a bit, some general recovery). Also at least by themselves none of these are as deadly as Batman getting radioactively poisoned, being lit on fire, then having a shovel stuck through his gut. Or Bruce having knives/blades right through/cut up/slice his shoulders, through the lungs, on the head, eyes and having his face lit on fire. Meanwhile, Batman never had a chance for any of his wounds to heal. He gets his injuries and has to keep fighting through, taking injuries with no rest whatsoever. Panther's feats is better for a multi day battle between factions, Batman's feat is better for a single fight.
Batman's Skill Vs. Panther's Skill
Are you seriously using Marvel Handbook power grids as a reliable source now? Come on man, I expected better from you.
You seem to think I was using the power grids as a source for power level. I was not. I was just using the power grid to see how many martial arts T'Challa mastered. In comparison with the fact Bruce mastered pretty much every fighting style on DC Earth. The amount of martial arts you mastered doesn't necessarily mean you are less skilled than the other person. However, when you've mastered much more martial arts than the other person/character you should know the counter to most of your opponent's moves, which is a massive help to say the least.
Do you know who recently stomped Deadpool in a battle of skill? Black Panther. And this was in Deadpool's own book.
Nice skill feat. Bruce has better. How about stomping Lady Shiva without too much trouble? (Superman/Batman #3)
Now you might say "CIB, Shiva matched Batman back in Death Of The Family. How can you think this feat is consistent?" The thing is, Batman has improved since the Death Of Family. He actually got some new training from Lady Shiva herself (Batman #509), and Ra's has commented that Bruce has gotten faster (Detective Comics #838). Also just to give skill feats for Shiva she has beat Richard Dragon (a character that has mastered every fighting style and stomped Bronze Tiger) without much trouble. She's also godstomped groups of Bamboo Monkeys (a single Bamboo Monkey is capable of stomping Nightwing and Tim Drake at the same time) and beat Conner Hawke (who has stomped Bamboo Monkey and beat Cassandra Cain) in a good fight.
Do you know who recently had the upper hand against Wolverine in a battle of skill? Black Panther, despite not even wanting to fight. And this was in Wolverine's own book (though to be fair, Wolverine had lost his healing factor prior to this battle - though it still shouldn't have affected his skill level).
1) Not wanting to fight doesn't change you have to win, thus BP would be using all his skill unless he wants to be slashed by Logan's claws. 2) The fact that Logan lost his healing factor is significant context. Since T'Challa stated (from your own scans) that Logan's fighting style is based on his ability to take damage, so without his healing factor he can't use his skill that well
3) I know Logan is greatly skilled, but he wasn't using much skill. Mostly he was slashing around with his claws, which isn't much skill to say the least. 4) It was again stated in the next issue (Wolverine Vol. 5 #9) that Logan lost some of his skill, when he fought Batroc.
Anyways, while that should be enough evidence that the power grids are inaccurate,
Inaccurate on what? The power grids never said a fighter is more skilled
and that Panther is indeed a master of all forms of hand-to-hand combat, as was stated,
You gave an instance from a guidebook. And another instance from a comic with T'Challa stating he studied every fighting style. And studied, not mastered. So with that one instance coming from you along with the handbooks, T'Challa hasn't mastered every fighting style.
He just stated he has studied every fighting style in the world - how does that mean he hasn't necessarily mastered them all? The two aren't mutually exclusive, you know
Because if he wanted to say he mastered them he would have said so, instead he opted to "studied" which is a far cry from mastered. Studied means he gained knowledge on every fighting style, mastered means he acquired complete knowledge and skill of every fighting style.
those two battles are very good skill feats for Panther in general as well.
Only the Deadpool instance. But Batman's feats surpass it.
Do you have any proof which doesn't come from a power grid that T'Challa has only mastered one combat style and just studied the others?
No, but I do have an instance of T'Challa stating he only studied them. An instance you posted already.
If not, I think I've provided enough proof that T'Challa has mastered them all, similarly to Batman.
What proof have you provided? Only a single Avengers Guidebook. Out-skilling someone doesn't mean you mastered more fighting styles, you could simply be extremely efficient in some fighting style.
He has a 6 in fighting skills, making him a master in several forms of combat.
This isn't impressive. League Of Assassin ninjas have mastered every martial art (Nightwing Vol. 2 #138). Every martial art>>>>several forms of combat.
And LoA ninjas get ROFL-stomped by Batman on a daily basis. Here's an instance of Bruce ROFL-stomping groups of them (Detective Comics #840)
look how easily he dispatches Black Widow.
Cool, Post Flashpoint Batman (making the differentiation of Post Flashpoint because you might ask about the consistency of Bruce beating Shiva easy, but then matching her) matched Post Flashpoint Lady Shiva (Detective Comics #956)
Post Flashpoint Shiva is far, far more skilled than Karnak. She's godstomped several Colony soliders in only 10 seconds (Detective Comics #952). A single Colony Solider is capable of matching Azreal (who has matched Red Hood and Tim Drake in CQC at the same time) so this is a very, very impressive feat. The gap between Shiva and Karnak is just so massive, that Batman's feat seems solidly better than T'Challa beating Karnak easily.
So any fight with Karnak requires a ton of skill to win, not just being quicker than he is
Again, T'Challa wasn't using some specific martial arts technique for it to be a huge skill feat. Like in this fight between Karate Kid and Batman you can see them using martial arts techniques to evade each other. With BP, he's just using (at least AFAIK) standard dodges. I'm not trying to lowball, but this what I'm seeing from the BP Vs. Karnak fight.
(although even being quicker than Karnak is impressive since he can easily split bullets in half with his bare hands after they have been fired).
You're confusing reaction time with combat speed. T'Challa evading Karnak's blow is evading Karnak's combat speed (not reaction time, as he wasn't reacting to anything with that). Now granted, Panther did tag Karnak before he could react. But tagging a bullet timer isn't such an impressive feat. By that logic, the vast majority of street levelers have supersonic combat speed (I know you didn't say that, but the only way the feat would be so impressive is if tagging a bullet timer is impressive).
Anyways, T'Challa has easily outskilled and dispatched Karnak not just once, but twice, in Black Panther Vol. 4 #20 and Fantastic Four Vol. 1 Annual #5:
This is an actual skill feat, I can see some martial arts moves.
Does Batman have any such feats of humiliating such skilled fighters?
He did humiliate Post Crisis Shiva, who (by the feats I had listed) should be massively more skilled than Karnak.
If T'Challa can nerve strike Luke Cage through his unbreakable skin (which has both way better blunt force and piercing durability than Batman's armor), he should be able to do the same through Bruce's armor.
I don't think you get my point. Thing is, T'Challa won't be touching Batman's actual pressure points. He's touching his armor. With Luke, he was fully capable of touching his pressure points.
First comes T'Challa inventing a completely new fighting style called "shadow combat", which relies on his mastery of Wakandan and K'un-Lun fighting styles, as it is a fusion of the two.
Bruce too has a unique fighting style of his own. He fused every fighting style he mastered into one unique fighting style (Shadow Of The Bat #0)
Next, T'Challa fights and takes down a Super-Skrull with the powers and skills of every skilled fighter on Earth, including Danny Rand. One of T'Challa's absolute best skill feats. I think this one is directly comparable with and definitely better than your Prometheus feat for Batman.
There's some context to this. First of all, T'Challa himself stated that there is now way he could have outfought the Skrull.
Secondly, T'Challa only beat him because of the fact that the Skrull can't maintain an ability, he has to switch between them. Quoting Panther, "And when he switches, he has tells. A subtle shift of weight. A slight change of posture. They're all small and hard to detect, but once I have them down, they tell me everything I need to know. Like, for example, when his left arm is invulnerable..and when it isn't", in that example Panther let The Skrull hold him in a feint, allowing T'Challa the chance to break the Skrull's arm. So, Black Panther didn't beat the Super Skrull due to skill. He beat him due to cunning and combat intelligence/tactics.
Meaning, Batman's Prometheus showing still means he is massively more skilled than Panther.
This is really impressive because Iron Fist was effectively bloodlusted and out to kill Panther, while T'Challa didn't want to fight and was trying to cure Danny. Despite that, T'Challa has the upper hand for the majority of the battle, dodging most of Danny's strikes, landing most of his own strikes, and in general being one step ahead.
Yup, this is an impressive skill feat. However T'Challa wasn't beating Danny so solidly. You can see in the last few scans that he was getting WTF-blitzed. Moreover, T'Challa seemed to be fighting defensively. The script confirms this:
From this I can that Panther's defense is top notch, but what about his overall fighting style? Y'know, mixing defense with offense and all? Overall, from this fight I can say Panther's defense matches IF's offense. Regardless, I still see Bruce as more skilled. Aside from stomping Shiva (Shiva alone is a match for Iron Fist and Black Panther's skill, based on the feats I listed for her. But even if she's not an exact match in that area, I think we can agree that she can is comparably skilled), I think I'm going to need to elaborate on the Prometheus' showing. Prometheus not only had the combined skills of DC's top 30 fighters (including Batman himself), he also had all their physical prowess (JLA #16)
So not only did Prometheus have the skills of DC's top 30 fighters including Batman himself, but also the physical prowess of all of them including Batman. Yet Bruce stomped him in their rematch. This is honestly the best (or second best) skill feat I've ever seen in any DC/Marvel comic, and the main reason why I think Bruce is significantly more skilled than Panther. But hey, if you aren't convinced have this Batman Vs. Karate Kid showing (Brave and The Bold Vol. 3 #5)
Batman fights Karate Kid, even gaining the upper hand. What makes this more impressive is that Bruce was fighting in zero gravity - something he isn’t used to so a disadvantage - while KK was using anti gravity martial arts. Plus KK stated that he could learn much from Bats. And no, this isn’t a case of PIS. KK was stated to be using anti gravity martial arts, meaning he wasn’t using the special martial arts that make him a mid tier. But why is fighting Karate Kid so impressive? Val’s mastery of martial arts is so top tier that he can use martial arts that make him a solid mid tier/low high tier. Moreover, he mastered every fighting style up to the 31st Century
- Gear: Bruce has the means to counter most of Panther's gear, with his own gadgets being capable of taking down T'Challa
- Physicals: Batman has every single physical advantage, with better combat endurance, strength, durability, combat speed, reaction time. Hopefully you show more impressive feats next post, because stone bar busting is a low street feat....heck, from my own Black Panther
- Skill: I have seen nothing from T'Challa beyond beating Shiva easily, matching (even gaining the upper ahnd) Karate Kid and stomping Prometheus
In essence, I think T'Challa would go down due to Batman being significantly more skilled, with a solid physical advantage and gear to counter Panther's own and take him down.
@_kingoflatveria: To be fair, a Black Panther Vs. Batman debate has a LOT of stuff to be addressed. Strength, striking power, combat speed, reaction time, blunt force durability, energy durability, piercing durability, endurance, skill, Dionesium Boost, energy daggers, anti metal claws, teleportation, hard light shields, weapon disrupters, restraining tech, gear to get some distance (flight and teleportation), electrical attacks, batarangs, EMPs, magnetic batarangs, freeze ray gun, etc.
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