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#451 Posted by BlitzSikes (1739 posts) - - Show Bio
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#452 Posted by Temporal_Shift (3640 posts) - - Show Bio

@jko1: nope not all beings.

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#453 Posted by Jko1 (472 posts) - - Show Bio

@temporal_shift: but didn't thought Hagoromo distributed chakra to everyone?

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#454 Posted by Temporal_Shift (3640 posts) - - Show Bio

@jko1: she used IT before any of that even happened

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#455 Posted by Jko1 (472 posts) - - Show Bio

@temporal_shift: Yea i know that but i was wondering why you said that animals in naruto don't have chakra. Hagaromo gave everyone chakra after he beat Kaguya.

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#456 Posted by BlitzSikes (1739 posts) - - Show Bio
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#457 Edited by Temporal_Shift (3640 posts) - - Show Bio

@blitzsikes: depends on who gets who first Ichibe or Kaguya.

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#458 Edited by BlitzSikes (1739 posts) - - Show Bio

@jko1: I believe that there was no Chakra at all before kaguya. She was the first to spread it.

Naruto Wiki states the same but if you want exact proof, you'll have to give me time to find it.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kaguya_%C5%8Ctsutsuki

She was the first wielder of it so no, there were people without Chakra in Naruto.

Also, apparently the normal civilians don't have Chakra either but idk how that works.

I'm certain some animals have Chakra like the toads and snakes from the senjutsu places but I don't believe normal animals have it.

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#459 Posted by Jatom22 (509 posts) - - Show Bio

@jko1: I think it's an area with no definitive answer I haven't seen one at least

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#460 Posted by Temporal_Shift (3640 posts) - - Show Bio

@jko1: normal animals are never stated to have Cakara and Hogo beat Kaguya because she trapped everyone in IT before they had Cakara.

That means you don't need Chakra to suffer from a Gebjutsu.

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#461 Posted by Jko1 (472 posts) - - Show Bio

@temporal_shift: Well im pretty sure the sage creatures like Gamabunta have chakra but i thought non sage creatures like Akamaru have chakra too?

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#462 Posted by Temporal_Shift (3640 posts) - - Show Bio

@jko1: Akamaru isn't a normal creature neither is Gumbabunta

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#463 Edited by BrownZeus (591 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: oh yeah I meant arguin as in conversation as well. Time is just very limited on my end you are okay.

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#465 Edited by BrownZeus (591 posts) - - Show Bio

Bleach clears hard-diff.

As I wrote in comment #47 of this thread I gave my opinion and thought I was done. When I followed up the thread obiously I expected opinions to differ, however some opinions where from my perspective just outright lowballing. Here is a slightly comprehensive post about Bleach, this post was made with the intention of better informing those that have either not payed much attention to Bleach in their reading of this series or those who have not read Bleach at all but hold some lesser understanding of it. Before starting please take note that all of this is taken from my personal opinion and all opinions are ultimately subjective, in order to make up for this I will provide as many scans as I can to illustrate my point as good as possible.

A heads up: Scaling.

Bleach unlike the other 2 members of the old HST (Naruto and One Piece) failed to mantain its popularity after Ichigo's final fight against Aizen in the Katakura town arc. This huge loss in popularity brought harm to Bleach as it clearly got rushed in the last arc, despite this being the case the Thousand year blood war arc also brought forth a collosal powerspike for the most important/relevant characters of the series, because of the rushed nature of the series was paired with a powerspike the last arc is left with huge holes in terms of feats. Most prevalent of all Ichigo suffered from this the most. Therefore in order to make justice for Ichigo, Aizen and Yhwach I will be forced to scale these guys from a lesser individual with more solid feats: Zaraki Kempachi.

Many people have voiced their reluctance and disagreement to scaling, after all scalling can work in too many different ways, however when it is regarding bleach I would strongly make a stand in that scaling is very simple and linear.

Reiryoku (in English known as "spiritual power"): The energy that fuels power.

Reiryoku defines the base power of every Shinigami and Hollow.

TLDR; Just being a spirit doesnt make you superhuman, in order for a spirit to be superhuman spirit power is of essence.
TLDR; Just being a spirit doesnt make you superhuman, in order for a spirit to be superhuman spirit power is of essence.
TLDR; The spirtual body will become stronger and faster the more Reiryoku the spiritual body has.
TLDR; The spirtual body will become stronger and faster the more Reiryoku the spiritual body has.

Everone in Bleach is human level without spiritual power. Strength, speed/quickness, durability, endurance, all of it is fueled by Reiryoku, and it's not only the base stats, literally everything from spells, skills and even the efectiveness of zampakuto scales from Reiryoku. When it comes to base stats and only base stats the one with more Reiryoku will always be superior.

Why use Kempachi?

Because Kempachi is litterally the most linear character in the series. Reiryoku is only the most basic and natural aspect of strength for a spiritual body, beyond it there are many skills and abilities that scale not depending on Reiryoku but skill. because of this scaling other characters gets much harder because one has to take into account not only their reiryoku but their degree of mastery with any of the four central aspects of combat in Bleach (Sword figthing, hand-to-hand, spells and speed). However this does not apply to Kempachi. Kempachi beside his colossal amount of Reiryoku is the most basic form of a figther, he does not use any skills or spells, even his extreme release of reiatsu only comes as a result of his immense Reiryoku and not any form of intentional display of power.

Two of four uses of Reiryoku; Reiatsu (spiritual pressure) and Shumpo

So now it's natural to think "but then it's just another case of DBZ ki, higher numbers win" right? No. This is not the case at all,because despite Reiryoku being at the core of power of every spiritual body it also has many different uses.

Since I will be scaling Ichigo, Aizen and Yhwach from Kempachi it is uneccesary to include spells and most Zenjutsu and hand-to-hand, however for relevance's sake I will still adress Reiatsu and Shumpo.

Reiatsu: Defense and Attack.

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Reiatsu is very closely tied with Reiryoku, Reiryoku is the amount of energy someone has stored in them while Reiatsu is the spiritual's body of directly manisfesting their abundance in Reiryoku.

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Reiryoku while looking like an aura actually is a phyisical manifestation of Reiryoku, this is why when in abundance it can be used to physically crush opponents who are much weaker. however it is much more than that. for those that have great amounts of Reiryoku Reiatsu can work both as a piece of extra armor and also as a amp for attack power and attack range.

Kempachi's Reiatsu is in this moment so large Ichigo hurt his hands hitting a solid object with so much force.
Kempachi's Reiatsu is in this moment so large Ichigo hurt his hands hitting a solid object with so much force.

Kempachi Zaraki is a walking landmass of Reiryoku, that is why his Reiatsu is so insane, turns out all Shinigami naturally exert a certain amount of Reiatsu and it takes skill to either intentionally increase it or supress it. Kempachi having zero skill at manipulating reiatsu is the prime example of someone just spreading their stats equally among all atributes.

It is worth noting one thing also.

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When one can naturally control their Reiatsu the defense not only can be used as an armor but also as a telepatic shield in near proximity, note that Chad uses his power to throw a range attack however Shunsui blocked without even touching it directly.

However Reiatsu has a third use besides being a defensive layer and a aoe Crushing tool and that is a damage amp with range

Kempachi's removed his eyepach, giving him enough base Reiatsu to casually cut Skyscraper-like buildings in half with ease.
Kempachi's removed his eyepach, giving him enough base Reiatsu to casually cut Skyscraper-like buildings in half with ease.

It is also worth noting that if two beings where to fight where one has high Reiryoku but average Reiatsu and the other regular Reiryoku but high Reiatsu then the winner would be the one with higher Reiatsu (as long as teh gap is not too big)

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The pressure and determination Ichigo felt at the moment subconciously increased his Reiatsu enough so that he was able to cut Kempachi.
The pressure and determination Ichigo felt at the moment subconciously increased his Reiatsu enough so that he was able to cut Kempachi.

Hohō/Shumpo:Speed boost.

So by now it should be clear that Kempachi is a monster because his lack of control and skill is shadowed by his monstrous Reiryoku. So then does that mean people with lesser Reiryoku cannot compete in speed? No.

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Shunpo (Shadow step in English) is a skill that allows the user of this ability to travel at great speeds for each "step" they take. the speed of this ability scales with Reiryoku and degree of mastery the user has over this ability. This ability is essential in high tiers of Bleach because of how much of an advantage it gives the userover their opponent, it can also help make up for the difference in speed against naturally faster opponents.

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Ichigo's first Bankai has as it's first main attribute to increase the base speed of Ichigo by compressing his power into a compact shape, when it was first activated Byakuya just couldn't keep up against Ichigo's innately superior speed.

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Through use of Shumpo Byakuya was then able to match Ichigo's amped base speed. This shows the importance of this ability.

Also worth mentioning before Ichigo trancended into Dangai Kempachi was relatively equal to Bankai Ichigo,

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Both Ichigo and Kempachi react at the same time approaching Stark, note that this is unpatched Kempachi and Bankai Ichigo
Both Ichigo and Kempachi react at the same time approaching Stark, note that this is unpatched Kempachi and Bankai Ichigo
Not only did they see, apporach and attack Stark at the same time, but both of them equally also lost track of Stark's Blitz.
Not only did they see, apporach and attack Stark at the same time, but both of them equally also lost track of Stark's Blitz.

The Size of Seretei.

Before we get to Kempachi we have to talk about his most relevant feat the busting of Gremmy's Meteorite. To see how impressive this feat is we have to talk about the size of the Seretei.

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So... how big is the Seretei? This question was always a pain in the ass to answer because Kubo is just very inconsistent in his depictions of the Seretei.

In order to see how big the Seretei is I can use this character statement from Yoruichi which is the most skilled user of shumpo in the entire Seretei:

Yoruichi saying the distance between each gate.
Yoruichi saying the distance between each gate.

Make no mistake, Yoruichi was implying that for Ichigo and party it would take 10 days at least to reach 1/4th of the way. even for an average human walking at average speed that is way more than what a city could possibly cover. Yoruichi herself surpasses everyone in Seretei in terms of shumpo. Her judgement is most accurate...

WAIT!

This example has been used so much people clearly think it is not enough, I've used it in the past and seen it being used and for that it gained endless rebuke from other users so I will take a different approach.

The Toureimon and the Soul King Palace.

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The Toureimon is the wall that lies around Seretei in times of emergency as a means of defence. It's existence is paramaount for defining the size of Seretei.

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These very walls that surround the Seretei are originally in place in order to protect the Soul King Palace. When the Seretei is being invaded they drop down as a means of protecting Seretei. This means that the Seretei and the Soul King Palace are the same in size.

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The Royal palace is divided into 7 parts: The Greater Palace, the 5 cities given by the Soul King to each Royal Guard captain and the vestibule-road which is the entrance. of Seretei.

5 Cities! Make no mistake these places are very big. The city of Nimaya is so big it can even house an entire inner sea in one of it's cities:

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This is Ichigo after he evaporated the sea. goes to show that this was no small lake in the City.
This is Ichigo after he evaporated the sea. goes to show that this was no small lake in the City.

Also because I have seen people argue in other forums that the Torureimon only covers the greater palace and nothing else there is this statement by Kirinji:

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This means that the 7 great structures in the Soul King Palace and the entire space in-between is the same as the Seretei. Although I am not bold enough to give a solid number this certainly is beyond multi-Island and trespasses into country-size territory (around small country in my opinion, country nonetheless but could be larger). This proof is consistent with Yourichi's statement hundreds of chapters before these ones.

If you are shocked there is no reasont to be. Throughout the series there were always hints that show how Big the Seretei is.

Kroczilla in a different thread pointed out a few statements in reply to someone else which are relevant. I will quote him and also provide scans:

"Seireitei has at least two large forests within it. The execution ground forests near the excursion ground (where soifon and yourichi as well as iba and ikkaku fought) and the forest containing the maggots nest, a secret prison"

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"there's also the 13th division training ground as well as the 13th division lake house."

Training in the 13th Division. name: Ugendō Quarters, the place where ukitake spent his time in order to deal with his illness. Has mountains in the background.
Training in the 13th Division. name: Ugendō Quarters, the place where ukitake spent his time in order to deal with his illness. Has mountains in the background.

These are true statements. There are also multiple more Research centers, training ground, multiple facilities and underground facilities, the woods near the plateau where Byakuya and Ichigo fought, the old district where Yamamoto spanked Ukitake and Koryaku, The prison at the center of Seretei which is basically a city of skyscrapers...

By now the Size of Seretei should be out of the question

Kempachi's monster feat.

Now to the Kempachi feat:

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Before beggining The Kempachi that pulled this meteorite-busting feat is this is eyepatched, shikai Kempachi. It is common knowledge that Kempachi holds back in form of his eyepach severely, moreover This feat was performed with his shikai which is only the first evolution from an Asauchi.

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Kempachi busted a meteor that in width/length alone is about 3 times smaller than Seretei or about 5 time smaller in area than Seretei from a bird's view, accounting for mass and speed (flames where visible meaning it was very fast) Kempachi pulverizing that meteor is a feat that would in itself reasonably destroy a large country from the collision, note that it was a pure strength feat, Kempachi not only did break the meteorite, he hit with so much force the remaining rubble lost most of it's speed, as a result Kempachi only retained minor scratches.

Gerard Valkyre VS Kempachi:

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If Kempachi can bust a meteorite that size well little does that amount to when fighting Gerard Valkyre. I will spare you guys the explanation to his powers, this post is plenty long allready. What matters is his standoff against Kempachi. I will also mention that this is Kempachi without his eyepach, Kempachi busted the meteor with his eyepach on.

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Kempachi is clearly struggling, we are talking about a small country+ to country level buster being overpowered by a Gerard in his base "Miracle" form. we also have Kempachi tanking the damage reflection of his own blade

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We all know how hard eyepatch-ed shikai Kempachi hits, we also know that Hoffnug reflects damage, Kempachi was basically constantly hitting himself with the full force of his unpatched shikai strikes in his battle against Gerard.

Enter bankai Kempachi.

If Gerard could hold a slight advantage against Kempachi's shikai then this is certainly not the case for bankai.

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Bankai Kempachi is mutiple times stronger, he ripped Gerard's arm off with his mouth, proceeded to jump and cut through his shield with a casual swing, hit him so hard he was sent off one of the levitating cities of the Soul King Palace. Gerard proceeded to create wings to get on the city at which point he was cleaved in perfect half by Kempachi. If this is not a power steroid I do not know what is.

EOS Reiatsu's 3 stages: 3 monsters.

I want to fully make clear that the EOS versions of Aizen, Ichigo and Yhwach all posess greater amounts of Reiatsu and Reiryoku than EOS Kempachi, hence their stats are superior. Going foward with this post I hope you all keep this in mind for what is to come.

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Reiatsu was always depicted as this formless aura that could either crush the soul or body. in this category Aizen, Ichigo and Yhwach reign supreme, with each of them being the 3 strongest wielders of Reiatsu in the entire series.

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After Yhwach killed the Soul King and absorbed Mimihagi-sama he intended to absorb Seretei through a dome that surrounded Seretei and get rid of the shinigami through the torrent of the Soul King's power.

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In the scans before ethe two above me it was easy to see that EOS characters were struggling with these creatures, yet Aizen with his mere prescence was starting to crush the torrent of the Soul King's power.

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This is a underrated feat. Aizen desintegrated the black swarm across Seretei with Chantless Kido in a Restrained and semi-sealed state!

This is a lot but it is not yet over:

Aizen eradicated the swarm, but the veil that is absorbing Seretei is still present. his chantless hado was still so powerful it left great leftover damage to the black veil.
Aizen eradicated the swarm, but the veil that is absorbing Seretei is still present. his chantless hado was still so powerful it left great leftover damage to the black veil.
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The last but of the matle crumbles.
The last but of the matle crumbles.

The Sub-title for this section was "3 Stages". I made that title because simply put Ichigo and Yhwach have reached new levels of Reiatsu.

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Once Ichigo gets serious and starts increasing his Reiatsu what happens is that this aura-like energy actually starts morphing into these gas-like clouds. something like this has never happened, Yamamoto was able to give his reiatsu a flame-like appearance because of the nature of his Zampakuto. Neither Kempachi nor Aizen at their strongest could replicate what Ichigo was doing in the panel above, By what we know fromt he canon of the universe this alone puts Ichigo 2nd. So let's talk about the 1st.

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Yhwach after absorbing Mimihagi and becoming the Soul King became so powerful his reatsu became a substance. So let me make this clear: Reiatsu always was this sort of aura-like power that could sometimes supress other times desintegrate opponents, it can enhace attacks and improve durability etc. Ichigo. The walking hybrid of a Shinigami, Quincy and Hollow, after reaching his utmost, highest potential managed to condence Reiatsu to such a degree that it became truly physical as a byproduct of his otherwordly Reiatsu. However Yhwach is so far ahead Ichigo his reiatsu condenced itself to become a substance. something tangible that can not only block but even attack Ichigo. Ichigo has amazing stats and he should posess some degree of Hierro and Blut Vene yet Yhwach in hisstats alone can shrug off base EOS Ichigo's Getsuga Tensho!

Ok. then. so we know these 3 guys are in base stats superior to Kempachi, Aizen is at least stronger than unpatched Shikai Kempachi and both Ichigo and Yhwach are stronger than bankai Kempachi. But what about their abilities?

EOS Ichigo's Getsuga Tensho

Getsuga Tensho:

Getsuga consentrates Ichigo's reiatsu into the edge of the blade for a condensed attack
Getsuga consentrates Ichigo's reiatsu into the edge of the blade for a condensed attack

This ability alone destroys Kempachi. Getsuga Tenshou with EOS Ichigo's Reiatsu scales to at least country level in attack potency in a lowball.

Hollow amp:

Ichigo's Reiatsu becomes so strong he can physically destroy a large building (Yhwach's resident the tip of the Wahrwelt) with a simple diplay of his Reiatsu:

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Getsuga + Gran Rey Cero + Blut

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The triple mix succeeded where normal Getsuga failed and managed to get to Yhwach directly. Remember that one Getsuga from EOS Ichigo's Shikai is superior to Kempachi's bankai, yet it was stopped dead on it's tracks by Yhwach's Reiatsu alone.

Soul King Yhwach

To begin with I cut Ichigo and Aizen's sections short because most of their EOS feats revolve around Yhwach himself.

To begin with we have his now mentioned durability feats: Yhwach can passively tank Ichigo's Getsuga

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Moreover he can also tank a amped shikai Ichigo's Getsuga-Rey Cero attack and dispell it entirely

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Obiously Yhwach can also use this substance as a tool to pierce and hit his opponent but that is just the scratch of it. Lets talk about the Allmigthy.

Omni-Precognition:

Yhwach's most popular ability, Yhwach not only has the ability to see the future, he can even see all possible futures. Yhwach describes this best himself:

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What is so crazy about this is that beyond merely seeing into the future Yhwach can see in to all possible futures, being capable of weighing in his options, we humans think "what if i do this and that?", Yhwach does not need to think of this, because he can no only see the future, he can also see how the future can change and use this to his advantage.

The future is here!

What is even more incredible is that not only can Yhwach see the future, he can also drag future events into the present. The most visible example of this are the traps he lays around in the future and drags them to the present by seemingly just pushing his palm foward:

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Yhwach did thisrelatively easy, he can really just stand there, point an arm and hurt his opponent

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By the way did I mention he can blitz a on-guard Ichigo? really this is the very next panel:

He just appeared behind Ichigo after he threw the horn, Ichigo did not even get to react.
He just appeared behind Ichigo after he threw the horn, Ichigo did not even get to react.

By the way going back to the attacking tot he furture: it can bypass barriers as well:

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Also Turns out Yhwach really could just lie on a bed and do nothing and still break attacks. when Renji attacked Yhwach he did not even stop to look back

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Yhwach can also unfairly impair movements, if he wanmted to just kill someone off he could just kill them from within with one of his reiatsu traps

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Yhwach's powers are not only limited to the future, there is an ability that allows him to steal his opponent's powers.

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Yhwach not only has crazy future-related powers, he also has what is perhaps the most broken defense against abilities (said ability is unnamed):

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Yhwach has the ability to render all powers he comprehends "useless" before him. this absolutely sets a timer on my opponents, for the more the fight goes on and the more the Shinigami sees his opponent's moves the faster Yhwach will comprehend enemy abilities. Give enough time and the Shinigami will be un-killable by either the Marine or Shinobi's entire arsenal.

Yhwach can also revive himself.

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On to the Gauntlet:

1) The Five Kage that fought Madara

Aizen solos. Aizen alone could kill them all with any Kido.

2) All of Akatsuki except Madara and OBITO

Aizen solos. Again Aizen can stomp with kido alone. His black coffin has enough range to just kill everyone. Hogyoku defends Aizen from TP

3) BM Naruto, EMS Sasuke (War Arc), and Killer Bee

Aizen solos These tree guys may actually be able to survive Aizen for a bit but Aizen still holds the superior battle-power.

4) Hashirama, Rinnegan Madara

Aizen solos. Rinnengan Madara and Hashirama actually have firepower and loads of it, they also posess regen and durability. Aizen has to try but the result still ends with Aizen being able to win.

The following 2 rounds are wrong in my opinion. Naruto and Sasuke have better showings.

5) 6 Path Naruto and 6 Path Sasuke

Ichigo joins in. Aizen and Ichigo hard diff. These guys have a true powerspike from the others, they have multi-island level attacks and they can pull these off with ease. To boot they have chakra to spare, I do not see Aizen winning this, Ichigo has to join and even then I see an even battle. Both Ichigo and Aizen have genjutsu resistance because of inner hollow and Hogyoku. Yhwach may join this but then it turns in to a stomp yet again.1

6) Juubi Madara

Yhwach joins. Aizen and Ichigo have no ways of actually putting down Madara but honestly Aizen alone could actually not be defeated quickly. with Ichigo in they get a great advantage but still cant put down Madara that is why Yhwach actually has to step in.

7) Kaguya and Black Zetsu

Yhwach carries hard diff. Kaguya is the strongest in Naruto by far, Aizen can at most impede Black zetsu however none of hsi bindings will work on Kaguya. Ichigo alone would also get baby-shaked by Kaguya but he has the attack potency to Push Kaguya around a bit. Not that it helps much tbh.

Yhwach himself is another matter, he like Kaguya is the strongest of his verse by far. I will say that Kaguya still holds the greater firepower, however Yhwach has the greater hax, the way I see it Yhwach only wins because of Sankt Altar, with it he can actually take away her powers and kill her.

I was gonna add in a speed section but it would take to long and I can allready see this thread is dying out so I had to just push this out as quick as possible.

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#466 Posted by KingogKings777 (1167 posts) - - Show Bio
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#467 Posted by ovy7 (512 posts) - - Show Bio
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#468 Posted by BrownZeus (591 posts) - - Show Bio
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#469 Posted by jasonhitto (1247 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaguya+ash bone spam= dead bleachverse

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#470 Posted by Earendill (63 posts) - - Show Bio

Stop at 1. Hard stop at 2.

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#471 Posted by KingogKings777 (1167 posts) - - Show Bio

Stop at 1. Hard stop at 2.

Reasons?

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#472 Posted by BrownZeus (591 posts) - - Show Bio

@earendill: mate care to elaborate? I see you are new welcome by the way.

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#473 Edited by genkidama (128 posts) - - Show Bio

Yhwach soloes the verse. Almighty Gg

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#474 Edited by LeoTheGreatest (957 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#475 Posted by NarutoBleachFan (1375 posts) - - Show Bio

@brownzeus: Great post, is it ok that I base off some of my arguments in the future with this?

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#476 Edited by Gear4God (3133 posts) - - Show Bio

Yhwach soloes the verse. Almighty Gg

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Online
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#477 Posted by DemonGod_PABLO (1017 posts) - - Show Bio

10 pages in and still no counter to the Almighty GG

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#478 Posted by Kayc (440 posts) - - Show Bio

They stop at round 7

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#479 Edited by BrownZeus (591 posts) - - Show Bio

@narutobleachfan: Sure go ahead I dont mind. No need to ask just thanks for letting me know beforehand. No need to reference me when you use them.

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#480 Posted by NarutoBleachFan (1375 posts) - - Show Bio
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#481 Posted by Jatom22 (509 posts) - - Show Bio
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#482 Posted by Sivil-Law (254 posts) - - Show Bio

Yhwach Almighty solos